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Double glazing and condensation
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condensation
Newbie
Join Date: 01/01/2010
Posts: 1
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Posted: 01/01/2010 1:42:36 PM
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Hi,
I have been living in a maisonette for 10 years. There has always been issues with condensation and mould. It mainly affects the rear of the property, which does not get as much sun. I have insulated the property (cavity fill), I do air the property, but problems persist. In terms of condensation, are all double glazing windows the same? For example, do some have better venting options, does more distance between the panes make much difference, what about double/triple glazing? Every now and then I repaint and minimise the mould. It though seems to be impossible to remove completely, and so comes back more in the winter. Also, I get a lot of condensation on the inside of the windows when we wkae up in the morning. The property is quite warm so I understand that there is mositure in the air, and we do do dry our clothes inside, so I know I am putting in some moisture in the air. Even in the main living room, where there is a lot less condensation on the windows in the morning, I do get a bit or mould creeping back.
So this post is partly about condensation, but also about double glazing. Should I for example replace the 2 rear bedroom windows? Will it make any difference, if so what do I need to be aware of? The maisonette above me has also had mould problems that I have seen, so in part it is not just about the moisture in our maisonette. Thanks for any help, guidance, pointers.
Regards
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Anglianeyes
Beginner
Join Date: 12/09/2009
Posts: 35
Location: Manchester
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DIY Conservatories Chris
Intermediate
Join Date: 30/09/2009
Posts: 79
Location: Sheffield, UK
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Posted: 05/01/2010 8:22:17 PM
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Hi Mr or Ms. Condensation,
Please forgive our friend Mr Anglianeyes, he has some rather deep rooted issues with Anglian Windows which unfortunately always seems to crop up in any posting or topic on the forum.
In response to your question, I'm guessing you have just single glazed windows. Is that right?
If so, then it is common to expect condensation as the pane of glass which is in contact with the cold air outside is the same pane that is in contact with your warm air inside. Condensation is unavoidable in this instance. You are right in thinking that the general principle with double glazing (amongst other points) is that the glass is separated by an air gap hence different temperatures of glass panes and reduction in condensation.
With new windows there is a wide debate through the industry about the need for additional ventilation to allow air flow (as new windows tend to be very well sealed) and these can take the form of tricklevents or other ventilation methods. but there is alot of moisture in households as you say and sometimes condensation will still occur.
Things to try are;
Always have a window open when drying clothes and seal that room off from the rest of the dwelling when doing so.
Use a similar principle when cooking/bathing, open a window close the door.
Leave a door slightly ajar to the bedroom at night to allow airflow in and out of the room.
With regard to your mould issue, one little tip I learned a few years ago was to use an old toothbrush with some diluted bleach water and clean the affected areas with that, it should remove the stubborn stains. (Make sure you give it all a good clean and dry afterwards though)
If you really want to do an experiment you can hire a dehumidifier for, say, a weekend and see how much water that collects. It may give you a tangible quantity to see what is building up. If you find it collects alot of water then double glazed windows will probably still suffer a similar problem.
Take a look at gazman's post link here, it's an interesting read.
Hope this helps a bit, cheers,
DIY Conservatories
Mighty Oaks from little acorns grow.
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Anglianeyes
Beginner
Join Date: 12/09/2009
Posts: 35
Location: Manchester
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Posted: 07/01/2010 6:02:51 AM
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The Double Glazing forum welcomes input from all members of the double glazing community, both people in the trade and homeowners.
However, following the lead of other members of the double glazing community, we have taken the decision to remove this post, as we have been informed that there is ongoing legal action, which we do not want to become involved with (please see house rules 5 - Don't Get Us In Trouble).
In addition, due to the legal action, Anglian are unable to reply in a public forum which, in our opinion, distorts the balance of discussion
Kind regards
Admin
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Gazman
Beginner
Join Date: 26/12/2009
Posts: 48
Location: Somerset
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Posted: 07/01/2010 10:38:19 AM
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I really do feel for you Anglianeyes. I have read your posts and watched your videos and the amount of condensation you get is xstream.
You seem to be taking all the right steps to minimise the problem and I wish I had an awnser for you.
The only things I can think to check would be to test that they have fitted low E glass (it is very unlikley that they didnt) a local window fitter or glass unit manufacture would have a tester that you can borrow or hire.
Also I have noticed that your units have plugs in them that suggest argon filled units. I do know of companys that say they argon fill but they really just put the plugs in and say they have. Perhaps a local unit manufacture could test this for you too (although It may be too late now as it is argued that the argon will escape from the unit within 6 years).
Even without low E glass and argon I would not expect to see that much condensation.
I know it only tackles the problem and not the cause but have you tryed running a dehumidifer to see if it helps? If nothing else it would be evidence of the amount of moisture in the air.
Is there such a thing as a condensation expert? Or maybe a structural engineer that could write up a report on what they believe to be the cause (I am chosing my works carfully as I dont want to blame the windows without proof). Have you already had some sort of survey with a writen report? If so I would be very interested in seeing it.
Do the job right the first time!
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Gazman
Beginner
Join Date: 26/12/2009
Posts: 48
Location: Somerset
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Posted: 07/01/2010 12:46:50 PM
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There are many manufactures of windows and many matierials that they can be made of Pvc, Steel, Timber (hardwood and softwood), Composite, Alluminium etc.
All of these products have their own strengths and weakness's. Metals are very conductive of heat and cold. Even with modern technology of their thermal breaks and impressive u values they do tend to condensate more than the other products.
Windows do have efficency ratings from A to F and very soon the new minimum rating will be C rated windows (including the glazing).
Untill recently I believed that the only real tangible deferences between the many Pvc windows on the market was the asthetics of the mouldings and the quality of the workmanship (both manufacturing and fitting) but after having watched Anglianeyes's videos Im starting to think there are a few bad designs out there.
do some have better venting options
As for ventilation of windows I belive the only options are to have trickle vents or to open the windows, I prefer the latter and am not a fan of trickle vents.
does more distance between the panes make much difference, what about double/triple glazing?
I beleive the optimum distance between the panes has been confermed as being 20mm. 4+20+4 the 4's being the glass thickness making unit 28mm.
The list of options is almost endless:
low E coatings
silver ion coatings
argon gas
warm edge spacer bars
tripple glazing
acustic glass
I would recomend warm edge spacer bars but really most of the options on offer cost alot of money for an improvment that is so small that you would never notice as a home owner bettween the A and C ratings in the real world.
I beleive that most A rated units are argon filled so you may want to bear in mind that the gas will leak out over the years. Depending on quoted prices is it worth paying the extra money for an effect that will only last for 5-6 years.
Do the job right the first time!
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Gazman
Beginner
Join Date: 26/12/2009
Posts: 48
Location: Somerset
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Posted: 07/01/2010 1:13:38 PM
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Quoted From condensation:
Hi,
I have been living in a maisonette for 10 years. There has always been issues with condensation and mould. It mainly affects the rear of the property, which does not get as much sun. I have insulated the property (cavity fill), I do air the property, but problems persist. In terms of condensation, are all double glazing windows the same? For example, do some have better venting options, does more distance between the panes make much difference, what about double/triple glazing? Every now and then I repaint and minimise the mould. It though seems to be impossible to remove completely, and so comes back more in the winter. Also, I get a lot of condensation on the inside of the windows when we wkae up in the morning. The property is quite warm so I understand that there is mositure in the air, and we do do dry our clothes inside, so I know I am putting in some moisture in the air. Even in the main living room, where there is a lot less condensation on the windows in the morning, I do get a bit or mould creeping back.
So this post is partly about condensation, but also about double glazing. Should I for example replace the 2 rear bedroom windows? Will it make any difference, if so what do I need to be aware of? The maisonette above me has also had mould problems that I have seen, so in part it is not just about the moisture in our maisonette. Thanks for any help, guidance, pointers.
Regards
Condensation and mould really are highly complex problems. I have been fitting windows for 10 years and luckily have never been called back to look at condensation problems.
Having said that I am currently trying to help a few people (who have had their windows fitted by others) with these problems. One of these houses has from what I can see perfectly good windows (not very well made good though). The common cause does seem to be by combining double glazing and wall cavity insulation in newer properties (I myself have both of these but I live in a 1930s house and have no problems).
I assume that your 2 rear bedroom windows are not currently double glazed? I would recomend getting them done but it could increase the condensation.
I would also recomend getting a dehumidifier.
As for the mould make sure you kill it before painting over it, Their are cleaning agents specifically for mould on sale, I dont know if these are more effective or just safer to use than bleach. You can also buy mould resistant paints and silicones.
Do the job right the first time!
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Anglianeyes
Beginner
Join Date: 12/09/2009
Posts: 35
Location: Manchester
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Posted: 01/02/2010 2:42:07 PM
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The Double Glazing forum welcomes useful questions and input from all members of the double glazing community, both people in the trade and homeowners.
However, following the lead of other members of the double glazing community, we have taken the decision to remove this post, as we have been informed that there is on-going legal action, which we do not want to become involved with (please see house rules 5 - Don't Get Us In Trouble)
In addition, due to the legal action, Anglian are unable to reply in a public forum which, in our opinion, distorts the balance of discussion.
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Anglianeyes
Beginner
Join Date: 12/09/2009
Posts: 35
Location: Manchester
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Anglianeyes
Beginner
Join Date: 12/09/2009
Posts: 35
Location: Manchester
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Anglianeyes
Beginner
Join Date: 12/09/2009
Posts: 35
Location: Manchester
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Posted: 09/02/2010 12:27:32 PM
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Do any of your members have any ideas on how to solve the Following Problems to a design of window that is causing so much problems of condensation and freezing up of windows
the link shows the design
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Et9CSGDOWQ
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Anglianeyes
Beginner
Join Date: 12/09/2009
Posts: 35
Location: Manchester
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Posted: 09/02/2010 12:30:20 PM
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it appears the link is not working after posting here on this site, the video is there
the Title of the film is
Anglian windows Design of Windows let water through the windows
under the screen name of anglianeyes.
cheers for any suggestions or ideas.
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Gazman
Beginner
Join Date: 26/12/2009
Posts: 48
Location: Somerset
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Posted: 09/02/2010 6:47:06 PM
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Quoted From Anglianeyes:
Do any of your members have any ideas on how to solve the Following Problems to a design of window that is causing so much problems of condensation and freezing up of windows
the link shows the design
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Et9CSGDOWQ
You keep using this thread to air your problems, This was someone elses thread about their problems.
Could you start your own thread please, Also if you try to avoid using the name ****** windows and posting direct links to videos where you name them your posts may not get deleted.
You do bring up some good points that would make good discussions like the use of sleaving through frames when fitting trickle vents. I have never seen them fitted on PVC windows and I have used frames from about 10 different manufacturers, But when I used to make aluminium windows we allways fitted sleaves.
I have a few ideas that may ease some of the problems you have for example it looks like in some of your videos they havent used expanding foam around the frames so cold air could be bridging the whole depth of your frames.
If you were closer to my location I would have loved to come and have a proper look at them.
Do the job right the first time!
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albatross
Beginner
Join Date: 11/02/2010
Posts: 24
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windowrebel
Newbie
Join Date: 05/08/2009
Posts: 8
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Posted: 24/02/2010 5:54:43 PM
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I think the clue to your problem is your statement that you are 'air drying your laundry in the space'. There are of course other sources of moisture as well from showering and cooking etc. Condensation occurs when warm moist air comes in contact with a surface that is colder than it is... there is no magic about it beyond that. The exact point when condensation occurs will depend on three things... the temperature of the cold surface, the temperature of the warm moist air and the relative humidity of the warm air. Let's say the temperature of the cold surface is 10 degrees colder than the warm moist air and let's look at two extremes of air...The first is if the air is so dry it is at 0% humidity and the second where it is at 100% humidity. For the 0% humidity case, no condensation can occur when it comes in contact with the cold surface because there is no water in the air for it to give up in the first place. In the second case of 100% humidity, condensation occurs immediately when it comes in contact with the cold surface since any drop in temperature means that water must start to condense out. As a matter of fact, even if the relative humidity is not quite 100% but is high enough, condensation will occur at some point as temperature is reduced. That temperature is called the dew point.
The first step for you is to understand what your humidity level is. For interior home space, it should be approximately 50% at normal indoor temperatures....at 40%, it is starting to get too dry and at 60%, it is getting too moist.. A relative humidity gauge can be picked up very inexpensively at your local hardware store...I did that and compared it to ones from my workplace I found it to be very accurate. Measuring the temperature of your interior space is obviously very easy but measuring the surface temperature of your glass is a bit trickier. I have a surface sensor that I use for my work but that is more for industrial purposes... not sure where you can buy something inexpensively like what I have but perhaps you can just use a normal gauge and put it up to the glass and insulate around it so that it gets you a glass temperature with as little influence from indoor space as possible (it won't be perfectly accurate but hopefully it will put you in the range). So.... then with your two temperatures and your relative humidity data in hand, you see if it makes sense. I would suggest you input the data into any one of numerous websites... just do a search for 'dew point calculator'.... my first search turned up this one for example.....http://einstein.atmos.colostate.edu/~mcnoldy/Humidity.html What you can do is input two of the three parameters and it will calculate the third one. For example, input your interior space temperature and your relative humidity and it will tell you at what temperature condensation occurs (the dew point temperature). Compare the number you get with what you measure on the windows and see if makes sense. If your windows are as cold (or even colder) than the calculated dew point, it is only natural that you are going to have condensation.
As for your mould, that is the direct outcome of water being left to sit for extended periods of time.
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